AMA Aragon - Luis Cuende

luis_aragon joined #trading_altcoins
ominous.shark Heyo!
jakethepanda Hi @luis_aragon
luis_aragon Hey @jakethepanda !
dr10 Hey :wink:
mward hello
jakethepanda Hi All. Let's welcome Luis Cuende from Aragon.
jakethepanda And Jorge.
jorge_aragon hi!!
luis_aragon We're pumped to be doing an AMA here!
jakethepanda Thanks for stopping by guys.
ghostfaceuk welcome to ark
jakethepanda If you guys are ready let's open it up.
luis_aragon Yay, let's do it
dr10 How would you - shortly & in easy words - sum-up the advantages of ARAGON to magazines and non-crypto people?
luis_aragon With Aragon, you can create and manage decentralized organizations--which are organizations that don't spend a dime on anything that it's not their product
Aka organizations that are way more productive and efficient. Also more fair, since no central party can dictate than a person from the US should not do business with one in Iran
dr10 okay, to warn you :smile: I prepared some questions while looking at your website, onepager, whitepaper, interviews, etc. Some questions could sound stupid, but I am a non-coder, so I ask everything that comes to my mind
I installed Aragon and "created my own organization". I clicked through the tabs. I could see that I can give Roles to People, Admin-Rights/Ownership, I can start Polls (Similar to a community server like Slack or Discord). I can start fundraising (For any kind of project within the company, I guess). And in the section "Bylaws" I can fall decisions about what certain roles have what kind of rights. What can be changed by what kind of people and how many votes are needed. I can see all this. And it looks good. But I have a simple question now, which is not meant to be rude, but straight forward: Why should any entrepeneur use this? Why not starting a company in the oldfashioned way? What additional practical benefits do people have from using Aragon? Even if I'd start an Internet Company, what makes Aragon vital for my projects success?
jakethepanda I'll wait until you answer the big question.
dr10 haha :smile:
luis_aragon Sure. So first of all, it's so efficient. I remember when I tried to open up my first company at the age of 15, I couldn't even do it legally for being underage! And it took like a month. Not to say every single interaction required going to a notary public. It's just so fucking frustrating
ominous.shark great question!
luis_aragon Then, regarding Internet/remote companies: it's so hard to hire and pay people all over the world with traditional companies. With Aragon, you can even assign them tokens with vesting in literally 2 clicks
Hope that answered your questions :slightly_smiling_face:
dr10 Let's say I build a company on Aragon in Germany and my Co-Founder is in Korea. Is there a global Tax-Model for Companies built on Aragon? Or is there anything planned? Won't I get into trouble with Tax Institutions or laws in general (like registering a company itself)?
sorry jake, needed to add this :smile: its in the same context
jakethepanda 1-2 years from now there may be many other platforms other than Ethereum with DAOs built on top. Do you have plans to create Aragon on other platforms that become popular? (edited)
luis_aragon We don't have any tax planned for people using Aragon Core (the Aragon dapp). Though we have been talking to a couple govs and it'd be super cool if you could pay taxes via ether and they could have a "tax address" as a government
What we do have is a subscription fee for the Aragon Network--which is a DAO that acts as a digital jurisdiction and will provide services to Aragon orgs like upgradeability and a decentralized court mechanism
dr10 I see.... but if that won't be realized I could have troubles on founding a company? I mean if german institutions find out that I have a company with people in korea, they want to know more for sure
luis_aragon @jakethepanda we are using Ethereum because it has the strongest developer community behind it. But obviously, if there are other EVM-compatible blockchains out there, we will not obstruct running Aragon on them
dr10 @ jakes question I'd like to add mine too...: Will Aragon be on Bitcoins Rootstock for example? Can you imagine that?
luis_aragon @dr10 you could have some trouble, but I cannot see how that would happen. If everyone is just an Ethereum address, it becomes very hard for a gov to even know who you are!
dr10 well, if I advertise my product on the internet, they will know :smile:
luis_aragon I wanna try running Aragon on RSK, yes :slightly_smiling_face:
dr10 In what kind of industries you can see decentralized organisations to succeed? My concern is, that it could work well in the digital environment, but why should anybody use Aragon or similar DAO/DAPPS in classic industries (resources, cars, pharma, tobacco, textiles, etc.)
luis_aragon First of all, the blockchain industry, for sure. Then, open source, since now it's a pretty much broken model that needs tokenization to happen
jakethepanda @dr10 has all of our questions.
:joy: (edited)
luis_aragon Then purely remote companies, because running them with traditional orgs is such a hassle
dr10 preparation is king. :sunglasses:
Okay, that makes sense.
luis_aragon Finally, regarding the traditional businesses, that's gonna take a while--for example, running a restaurant on Aragon will be much harder than running a remote company
dr10 I've read this example story about Manuel and Maria, who found a company in venezuela and argentina through Aragon. 1) Why would people want to creat such kind of companies? Doesnt it depend on the good they are producing? I can imagine it for digital goods, but if I want to found my own car company, why should I use Aragon? 2) What kind of benefits are there for people in Western World countries using Aragon? 3) Do these decentralized companies have hierarchy aswell? What if Manuel and Maria hire some workers or freelancers and they don't deliver the work. Isn't it much harder to sustain a high quality production level in whatever-they-produce? How could Aragon help here, when people 100 or 1000miles away from each other participate in such an organization?
If I'm too fast, slow me down :joy:
luis_aragon 1) That's a though one. I think that 90% of the wealth that's gonna be created in the next decades will be digital-only, so we're not focusing on that very much
2) Freedom (no one telling you who you can interact with, or how), way smaller fees, nonexistent bureaucracy, things you couldn't do with a traditional co (such as two-click vesting on token sales)
3) They could! We have incorporated the Roles module so people can set different permissions. Then, if someone doesn't deliver the work, you can do two things: make sure you encode as most of the conditions as possible in a contract, and resort to the Aragon Network's decentralized arbitration system
(The arbitration works like a court, punishing the losers and rewarding the winner)
dr10 Okay regarding the third questions, I have an additional scenario/question:
If my employee delivers results, will he be paid automatically or do I need to pay him manually? What if he delivers results and I just won't pay him, because I'm a Jerk (xD), how can he fight for his right?
luis_aragon Right now you'd have to pay him manually, but we're introducing a very easy module system for other people to extend Aragon organizations' functionality. So you could build your own module that rewards people depending on a series of events
If you don't pay him, he can also resort to the Aragon Network court system--which is sort of a prediction market with judges that resolve disputes
jakethepanda Do you have any kind of guestimate on how many new DAO's in the pipeline will use Aragon? I know you have some partnerships already.
luis_aragon @jakethepanda some projects that want to use it for governance are Digix, Status, 0x and Democracy.Earth
tranzer I think I read you don't have any hard cap in place, but have a secret one. Can we know more?
luis_aragon And we do have a lot more on the pipeline--we're just telling everyone to wait until we deploy to the mainnet
dr10 How can the Aragon Network punish me, if I dont pay my workers? I didnt understand this.. maybe lets work around a real world scenarion, its easier to understand for me. Let's say I create a Virtual Game. My employee uploads a code. The smart contract executes the payment. Okay. What if I have another employee who should create face-to-face relationships with game distirbutors (aquisation), how can the smart contract identify that he did his job right? Probably I - as the owner need to interact - and pay him. What if I dont pay him? How can the Aragon Network punish or force me to do so? It's a very subjective matter, probably a case for lawyers (in the old fashioned way).
luis_aragon @tranzer sure! We wrote a blog post going thru the hidden cap at Aragon Token sale cap clarification – Aragon tl;dr: Our cap is not $100m, or near that amount

Reading time

2 min read
May 12th at 7:09 PM
cannabanana how are you different than wings
dr10 But as I understood Aragon could replace most work lawyers did in the past
luis_aragon @dr10 basically the Aragon Network's arbitration is a human one--judges are humans that review the case and bet on the fair outcome
@cannabanana AFAIK Wings is centered around fundraising, while Aragon has a broader approach
cannabanana :T
tranzer Thank you @luis_aragon . How many developers are currently working on Aragon. Looks like most was done by you and your friend? Cause it seems like a lot of work was already put in this product and I'm amazed by this.
dr10 In the Aragon One-Pager you claim that there are already 700 organizations working on two testnets? Are these real organizations/companies and if yes, would you introduce us to three most different companies/industries that use Aragon by now?
luis_aragon @tranzer yes, @jorge_aragon and me have been the only ones working on product until now. And yeah, it has taken a lot of work to arrive to the product we have now :sweat_smile:
@dr10 it's actually 2.5k now. They're test orgs, and we don't have any data on them (they're just addresses, we don't collect any data)
someonesomeone Hi guys! Hi Luis
dr10 I see
What is your budgeting plan? How much you need to raise, to execute your 2 year plan, that you mentioned at your website?
jakethepanda How does ANT (the token) fit into the platform? What gives it value?
luis_aragon Hi @someonesomeone
@dr10 we need $5.3m for a 5 year runaway, so I think for two years it'd be around $2-3m (edited)
However, this things take time to become mainstream, so I always want to have 5 year runaway
tranzer Will you only be able to pay in ANT for services or with other currencies as well?
luis_aragon @jakethepanda ANT is the governance token of the Aragon Network. The Aragon Network is a super customizable DAO--basically ANT holders will be able to tweak every parameter, from minting rate to fees that companies have to pay
jakethepanda Are fees paid in ANT?
luis_aragon @tranzer for being subscribed to the Aragon Network and getting its services, you need to pay some % of your revenue in ether, and you are given ANT. It's kind of a minting process.
dr10 Is there already some plan or future business relationship with merchants, exchanges or complementing software products. Anything you want to share already?
luis_aragon However, ANT holders will be able to change that if we all see that it could work better
@dr10 we do have a partnership with ShapeShift, so I hope to see us listed there soon! We're not trying to rush getting into exchanges, but 3 have already contacted us
tranzer Will I as organization on Aragon be able to pay for services done for my organization in BTC as well?
dr10 What is block target time? What is transaction speed? How many confirmations are needed?
luis_aragon @tranzer you could do that using ShapeShift, sure :slightly_smiling_face:
@dr10 what do you mean?
cannabanana so you're not really a blockchain technology? Just another asset token?
jakethepanda So right now the value in holding ANT is the voting rights? Do DAO's pay the fees in ANT or ETH? Sorry I'm a little confused.
dr10 I meant what is the speed of the ANT token.. or is ist as fast as ethereum?
luis_aragon @cannabanana we're on the bleeding edge of blockchain technology :sweat_smile:
cannabanana but if you're running on top of another platform, why do you need 100m?
not hating, just seems like recently people are not starting their own blockchain technologies. just running on top of another.
mike Hi luis, thanks for doing the AMA with us, I just found out about it, Aragon looks very interesting
luis_aragon @jakethepanda the value is always voting rights, yes. DAOs pay fees in eth, and they are minted tokens. Because when they pay eth to the Aragon Network, they're essentially making the Network wealthier
@cannabanana first of all, we're not raising $100m, secondly, I don't see what's the problem or why you are less worthy for running on top of a blockchain
tranzer How will someone mint ANT tokens since you are running on ETH?
luis_aragon Thanks @mike!
someonesomeone @luis_aragon so the hard cap is under $100m?
luis_aragon @tranzer by being subscribed to the Network and paying fees to it
tranzer the more ANT you have the bigger your share of minting and voting rights ?
luis_aragon @someonesomeone we did a very concise write up about hidden cap, hard cap etc at
someonesomeone Well I wouldn't really call that concise since you don't actually reveal anything about the hard cap :slightly_smiling_face:
luis_aragon @tranzer your voting rights, yes, your minting, no, since having ANT doesn't give you any minting capabilities
cannabanana @luis_aragon not less worthy but if you cant write up your own blockchain then why are you worth even 10m?
luis_aragon @someonesomeone it's called a hidden cap for a reason?
mike Will Aragon use proxy voting like liquid democracy?
luis_aragon @cannabanana why do you want to write your own blockchain? That's kind of stupid. Ideally you want a single, strong blockchain. That's how blockchains work
cannabanana lol cause it shows the people in this industry that you are legit
luis_aragon If not you end up with 1000 databases that could be compromised with a couple ASICs
@cannabanana i don't understand the point
cannabanana exactly
chrisnias @luis_aragon thanks for this AMA. 3 questions on your ICO: 1. Your hidden cap - we are investing at an unknown valuation, I find this problematic, any thoughts. 2. Liquidity - when will the tokens be live on an exchange for secondary trading? 3. Funding scheme - you are basically raising all your funds now (70% of tokens are for sale correct?). Why have you chosen this approach over a smaller series of individual raises as/when you need the funds (also hopefully allowing you to raising funds at higher valuations in further rounds as you progress).
luis_aragon @mike we could, but we're more interested into futarchy-like systems
@chrisnias 1: It's problematic for a lot of seasoned buyers, and that's why we have created it. To incentivize small buyers and not whales
mike Actually a lot of tokens could be hosted on a blockchain, uses less resources than having a separate blockchain for each token, a lot depends on how frequently the tokens are expected to be used in transactions.
luis_aragon @chrisnias 2: We are not rushing it, so I don't really have an estimate
mike I'm interested in how the futarchy model turns out. Ralph Merkle did a nice talk on it a while back.
dr10 What is Aragon Stories simply explained?
luis_aragon @chrisnias 3: We do have a continuous token model, since there will be minting of tokens over time. In my opinion continuous token models are way better than doing multiple token sales. This is a very interesting post about continuous token models: (edited)
@mike totally, it's super stupid to have a blockchain per token LOL
chrisnias Thanks for your answers @luis_aragon
cannabanana so you're saying we're stupid
luis_aragon @mike we have been super inspired by Ralph's work
@dr10 it was a joke :stuck_out_tongue: Everyone is bundling Stories everywhere--WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram... We just didn't wanna miss out
dr10 ok xD
I did scroll your team @ your website. But if you don't mind, would you please sum up What are the references of you and your team members? On what projects did you work before?
mike sorry luis, think there was a miscommunication, I meant that a lot of tokens could be hosted on a single chain, it would be a waste of resources to put each one on its own chain.
luis_aragon @mike yes yes I got it, I was agreeing with you :stuck_out_tongue:
mike yes, some might be better migrated to their own chains later if there is enough volume to justify it, but it makes sense to start the initial fund and distribution on a hosted chain. (edited)
luis_aragon @dr10 so I got started with free software when I was 12, was awarded as the best European hacker under 18 at age 15, then got into startups and advising the European Commission. In 2012 I got into Bitcoin, and eventually founded -- which raised money from Tim Draper, investor in Skype, Tesla, SpaceX... I'm also a Forbes 30 under 30 and a MIT TR35
On the other hand, Jorge has been building a lot of cool apps (one of them reached the #2 in the App Store) and we met each other like 5 or 6 years ago, and have been friends since that moment. He had some toy projects such as a small blockchain implementation and a mesh network
sidzero @luis_aragon I don't really see how it will be efficient to just ignore all legal frameworks and laws. There are reasons why it is complicated to setup a company. Do you think you can create DAOs (i.e. entrepreneurial organizations) and just ignore that there are tax laws, employment laws and company laws, etc? For me there are huge unknown risks involved in such a project. Don't think that is just that simple... luis_aragon Sure. So first of all, it's so efficient. I remember when I tried to open up my first company at the age of 15, I couldn't even do it legally for being underage! And it took like a month. Not to say every single interaction required going to a notary public. It's just so fucking frustrating Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 6:04 PM
dr10 Okay and here is my last question. I think I got what Aragon is about, but just want to round it up :smile: : What are the three crypto-currencies that are most similar to yours and yet why is ARAGON different?
jph1337 @dr10 nice questions, good simplified for the non coders.
dr10 yeah, my advantage is clearly, that I have no clue of codes and cryptos. :boogie:
mike Will using Aragon by itself as a legal jurisdiction be sufficient for an Aragon based entity be able to open bank accounts, trading accounts, and own real estate? Enter into legally enforceable contracts? (edited)
luis_aragon @sidzero well, there's now a wave of people that want to take that risks to simplify their lives. In the beginning, months ago, it seemed more unlikely to me that people would just adopt it, but now after seen the interest for it, I'm very much convinced
@dr10 I think The DAO was similar to some extent, but apart from that, I don't really see any others with similarities
chrisnias @luis_aragon you founded (how long ago?), but you are now an advisor. What was your role there and why you are no longer 100% focused on that project?
luis_aragon @mike not in the short term, but who knows if that will be possible in the long term! Also we are talking to a couple govs to see if they could adopt Aragon orgs as legally established orgs
@chrisnias I founded it circa 2014, and I'm still involved and very proud of what the team is building. I guess I just wanted to do a moonshot, and Aragon is the craziest thing we could ever come up with!
chrisnias The reason I ask is, you are the key man on this project, I'm looking to establish you will be 100% focussed on it for the 5 year plan..
dr10 Will you expand your team (developers) after the ICO?
luis_aragon Sure @chrisnias
chrisnias If you raise money in Silicon Valley for a 5 year project and leave before its either succeeded or died, that's a big no-no
luis_aragon @dr10 yes! We want to expand the team to 10 this year
chrisnias as I understand...
luis_aragon I know, I have lived in the Valley for a while @chrisnias
tranzer Will other companies/organizations be able to invoice you in FIAT value with aproximate value in ANT / ETH and it would be enough if you paid them in ETH from your organizations address?
luis_aragon @tranzer we are certainly exploring using a legal entity as a proxy for that to happen. But more like a medium-term thing
jakethepanda Hey all. Please wrap up your questions in the next few minutes. You can visit the Aragon Slack at
mike which countries look like good prospects for recognizing Aragon based entities as legal entities?
luis_aragon @mike Switzerland and Liberland :slightly_smiling_face:
jakethepanda @luis_aragon @jorge_aragon Thanks guys for stopping by. Good luck!
mike Liberland seems like they'd do it no problem, so they are recognized as a country now?
dr10 Thank you! Very interesting project, hope I can participate. :slightly_smiling_face:
mike Thank you very much for coming by to chat with us Luis.
new messages luis_aragon @mike not really, but they're working on it
Thanks for having me @jakethepanda, and thanks to everyone for participating! Feel free to join our Slack and ask me anything there. Jumping off to a call in a minute!
chrisnias So @luis_aragon, you were CTO of Stampery from Oct-14 to Sep-16. I feel I need to press this point, can we get some comfort as to your commitment to keep your considerable talent focussed on this project through to fruition. (sorry, im over time....)
luis_aragon* @chrisnias sure! Aragon is truly my baby, I want to nurture it and see it grow. We also have 2-year vesting as founders Well, thanks everyone! See you in the crypto-space :sunglasses: Make sure to check out
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